Author Topic: So. Thief.  (Read 8133 times)

Offline Silver Sorrow

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So. Thief.
« on: February 26, 2014, 08:15:34 AM »


Day One: Launch Day
Pre-ordered a month or so ago. Game ready. However, it was a long, tiring morning preceding my opportunity to sit down with the game...this became painfully obvious when I went to configure my keys and vapor-locked at the bewildering number of functions and shit. Took a nap.

Later: small window of free time to play; unfortunate decision to bludgeon iTunes due to sheer spite wasted opportunity. On the bright side, my Ant Phillips library is now immaculately organized. Can't say the same for my Katatonia library.


Day Two: I Actually Play the Damned Thing. Sort Of.
Finally remapped the keys to my liking; only a small number of victims required to power The Machine. [Note to self: buy a whole bunch of paper towels.] Played a bit of the intro. Loot glint is alive and well. Body-awareness is good, not awkward and stupid like TDS. Interesting lever-search and lockpicking mini-game. Pick up loot, birds freak out, game crashes.

Hmmm.

Lower texture settings to "normal," whatever THAT means. Start over. Pass freaked birds, endure more tutorial hand-holding (something for which I am thankful, don't get me wrong). Get to a spot where I need to sneak around some people. Game crashes.

Begin journal, as it's more constructive than leaping from a window to my death.

Just kidding. It probably wouldn't kill me, not right away. I'd most likely just break something important and lie there until I died of exposure.

I'm concerned about how the hype machine lovingly details how closely the devs worked with AMD in order to fuck over Nvidia owners without mercy. I wonder...
An interview with Kim Kardashian? Who wants to see that? I'd rather see an interview with the mortician's assistant who had to piece her head back together so they could have an open-casket funeral.

Offline Doc_Brown

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Re: So. Thief.
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2014, 11:18:28 AM »
While I don't have the game yet to see for myself, I have to admit concern from the reviews I'm seeing.  Who would've thought that a next-gen Thief game from the team behind Human Revolution would be getting worse scores than Deadly Shadows?

In a bitter turn of irony, I suppose it's good Stephen Russell didn't voice our beloved Garrett for this outing...
Roads?  Where we're going we don't need roads.

Offline The Rogue Wolf

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Re: So. Thief.
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2014, 12:49:07 PM »
I dunno, my GTX770 has been handling the game like a pro so far. I do have a few nitpicks about this new outing, but so far I haven't seen anything that really justifies the poor reviews.
"Choice one: we flank them using what military men called tactics, and what religious men call divine inspiration. Or, we charge at them head on screaming various obscenities, in what military men call bravery and religious men also call divine inspiration."

Offline Silver Sorrow

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Re: So. Thief.
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2014, 05:26:35 PM »
It's most likely the dumbass fanboys who are driving down the review scores, no matter how good or bad the game really is. (I bought the first Thief with money that I got from my paper route and I know everything about it and it's a disgrace that Stephen Russell isn't voicing Garrett, OMFG you can't hop all over the place like a larcenous kangaroo anymore, etc.) This is why I've been ignoring all of the previews, reviews, first glimpses, first impressions, and the Steam forums in general (mostly as they're crammed tight with morons in the first place).

For my part, I'm intrigued; the "new" Garrett is not exactly as cynical and world-weary as Russell's performance, but he does have the raspy voice thing working for him. At times, kind of in the style of Jim Caviezel's Mr. Reese in Person Of Interest, I think. :ok:  And the cutscenes have been fairly interesting, too. So far, I'm not disappointed.

I messed about with the settings a bit. Checking the "Exclusive Fullscreen" box, lowering most (or all) of the graphics options to "normal," not enabling FXAA and MSAA, and so on, allowed me to finish the tutorial and get to first chapter, where I could finally make a manual save.

Of course, upon exiting Win7 was quite concerned and informed me that I really should switch to Win7 Basic because I didn't seem to have enough horsepower to keep going like this. I serenely clicked on the "Shut Up And Just Do Your Goddamn Job" button. Cripes. I have a 4mb GTX 650 Ti and 16gb of RAM...anything else and I'm gonna have to sell my plasma.  :ss-disbelief
An interview with Kim Kardashian? Who wants to see that? I'd rather see an interview with the mortician's assistant who had to piece her head back together so they could have an open-casket funeral.

Offline Starfox

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Re: So. Thief.
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2014, 07:16:08 PM »
Well, I can't play it because officially it's only released tomorrow in Europe and Steam insists on that date  ::)

But yeah, already it managed to achieve the worst review scores of all the thief history. Impressive in itself  :lol:

Well, I still try to maintain a neutral optimism and will judge by myself... somehow this week-end.

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Of course, upon exiting Win7 was quite concerned and informed me that I really should switch to Win7 Basic because I didn't seem to have enough horsepower to keep going like this.

I wouldn't worry too much about that. Like for 90% of the gamers rig, it's probably your Hard Drive that is lagging when the game quits. The Windows performance monitor include the HD which is not a very good idea because unless you have a fancy 15,000 RPM SAS drive the HD will always be the weak link in modern gaming rigs regarding performances (which is fine most of the time because with 8GB RAM or more you shouldn't need the HD while in game (except when loading levels and saving the game).


Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world. -- A. Einstein

Offline Doc_Brown

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Re: So. Thief.
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2014, 10:59:35 PM »
It's most likely the dumbass fanboys who are driving down the review scores, no matter how good or bad the game really is.

Actually, of the handful of reviews I've read so far none have identified themselves as fans of the old games.  It's actually kind of frustrating, as I'd really like to hear the opinion of, well, someone like me.

Tangent: Anyone still active on the TTLG forums?  I was back when Deadly Shadows was in development, and I remember all the grumbling that went on.  Nowadays?  Not so much, so I wonder what sort of pre-release opinions diehard fans had of Thief...
Roads?  Where we're going we don't need roads.

Offline Silver Sorrow

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Re: So. Thief.
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2014, 10:52:03 PM »
In the one review I skimmed, the reviewer made a big deal of comparing the action (unfavorably) to Assassin's Creed, so I'm just writing him off as an idiot.

TTLG? No, I haven't been there lately. The T1 & T2 FMs were getting pretty sparse, the TDS/Dark Mod FMs were where most of the action was (not a fan of either) and I concentrated on other games. Games with customization options that never truly sated my soul.

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I wouldn't worry too much about that.

Merci.  :ok:   I haven't really pushed this new system yet (aside from listening to my vidcard howl when I had too many gee-whiz FX going in Skyrim), and Thief seems to rely on other resources... So far, after leveling out the settings to normal has worked well; I really don't see the point of using the highest texture settings available, as it looks great on normal as it is. :P

But so far...I like this one far more than TDS. :ss-woot
An interview with Kim Kardashian? Who wants to see that? I'd rather see an interview with the mortician's assistant who had to piece her head back together so they could have an open-casket funeral.

Offline Starfox

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Re: So. Thief.
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2014, 05:18:56 AM »
So far I haven't completely build my opinion. There are good points (The city is well done, with side-missions suiting a thief; far better handled than TDS) and then there are those moments that remind me that publishers today think that games should be all on testosterone End of Chapter 2, the "run for your life" thing... and its optional goal: "Perform 10 combat takedowns" (note that to perform a combat takedown the opponent must be fully alerted of your presence which means of course breaking stealth; which at that moment in the game is not difficult since the whole compound is on alert through no fault of the player. A takedown while the opponent is unaware is NOT a "combat" takedown). SO... really? 10 combat takedowns? I had no idea that Garrett was instructed by Sam Fisher. That particular piece of work seemed designed by... what was the nick of this guy that thought that Thief FMs should play like Unreal Tournament?

So yeah... right now I don't hate the game... Which is good. I don't adore it either... Which could be bad depending on the other chapters. we'll see.

I "whined" about some gameplay "features" immediately when I realized what they were... Example: stand still in the open and try to jump... that's right you can't. You can only jump in places that the developers designed for that. You have a sudden wish to jump on (or over) a table? No can do amigo. There is a good side to that though... You cannot drop from a roof by accident. You have to really, really want it. And then the game is designed for the "jump only where you can" thing... Meaning, there's no loot to be found on an apparently inaccessible rooftop that you can climb to only by stacking boxes. If you don't have the necessary environmental features to climb, you can be assured that there's no loot over there.

But everyone seem to forget the essential question about this game... Is there going to be a SDK released or will it be treated like Deus EX: HR? Because if it receives the DX:HR treatment, this game will be dead before you know it. I guess the Thief community can do something with that engine, but not without tools.


Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world. -- A. Einstein

Offline The Rogue Wolf

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Re: So. Thief.
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2014, 10:24:35 AM »
But so far...I like this one far more than TDS. :ss-woot
Damning with faint praise?  :lol:

I stopped playing for a bit after not being able to find a way back to Basso's to get more supplies, then getting semi-stuck in a mission where a tool would've made things greatly easier. I can't seem to find the map.  :mad1:
"Choice one: we flank them using what military men called tactics, and what religious men call divine inspiration. Or, we charge at them head on screaming various obscenities, in what military men call bravery and religious men also call divine inspiration."

Offline Silver Sorrow

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Re: So. Thief.
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2014, 04:46:22 PM »
Damning with faint praise?  :lol:

Whoops...you got me! Considering that I'd rather be nailed to a wall than play TDS again... :ok:

I have trouble finding my way around...even though by now it should be as familiar as my real-world route from my chair to the bathroom, I'm still trying to get used to the place. Today, due to severe mental exhaustion, it went something like this:

"Okay, wait. I know this: to get to Ector's shop from here, I need to cross that roof, climb through that one map-changing window, find the second rope arrow, avoid all those guards with torches, lanterns, and crossbows...you know what? To hell with it. I'm just putting a few arrows through a few eye sockets."

This works, oddly enough. Although I'm out of broadheads now. :ss-meh  I'm not sure how the game is changing guard patrols depending on how I play (Are there more guards after I KO/massacre everyone in a certain area? We'll see.), but at least they don't respawn immediately like in TDS. But in a given part of town that has a portal to a side mission, extinguished lights and guards reset after I complete that mission and return to that area, which is something I don't really like.

Wait. The map: hitting (default) M brings up a mini map, which is confusing in itself...it isn't fixed, spinning around all willy-nilly with the player. (This can be changed in the settings, btw.) You can hit F1 and choose "View Map" from the journal, [sarcasm]which seems to be FAR more convenient than merely hitting, say, the tab key.[/sarcasm]

Doc - here's something of a review from a guy on TTLG: Detailed Review From A Veteran Taffer.

I have a few nitpicks with the game, but I'm being nagged to update my Nvidia drivers. ::)  More later.
An interview with Kim Kardashian? Who wants to see that? I'd rather see an interview with the mortician's assistant who had to piece her head back together so they could have an open-casket funeral.

Offline Silver Sorrow

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Re: So. Thief.
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2014, 10:55:54 AM »
Okay. Random griping.

- The save system is profoundly retarded. The autosaves overwrite my quicksaves, so I have to do a hard save before I go through, say, a window portal [map change], instead of relying upon a quicksave. If I decide that I don't want to be there and hit F9, it will not load my quicksave. No. It loads the autosave it created after loading the current map.

Also, how the save slots are...never mind. Back to chugging Mylanta.  :babydrink:

- I spend more time trying to find out *how* to get to a location in a side mission than I do in actually playing the side mission itself. Case in point: trying to get to a certain person's apartment in Map A requires me to find the window to take me to another map (let's call it Map B), finding the alternate window that takes me back to Map A, then climbing a rope to the apartment.

Make that Mylanta a double. :sickbay:

- Also, I find it irritating that, after prying open a window into an apartment, I have to pry open the same window again when I leave.

- The caliber of the writing...well...suffers, in comparison to the original. Instead of the amusing "taffer" in lieu of stronger epithets, we have the characters peppering the air with f-bombs aplenty. However, this fits in perfectly with the current generation of barely-functional illiterates; in order to be relevant and edgy, your character has to rage-stroke about everything that happens to them. You can't just say "I'm going to kill you." You have to say "I'm going to fucking kill you!"

Remember: rage should never be fettered by reason, common sense, or even good grammar. For example:

"You goddamn rotten asshole pervert shithead! I'M FUCKIN' GONNA FUCKIN' KILL YOUR FUCKIN' ASS YOU FUCKIN' FUCK!"

And so on. I apologize. I censored it as best I could. Okay, not really. It just looks funnier that way.

- That brothel was...interesting.  :ss-weird1  I took many screenshots.

Alas, but no rest for the tired. Must feed the convalescent their lunch.  ::)
An interview with Kim Kardashian? Who wants to see that? I'd rather see an interview with the mortician's assistant who had to piece her head back together so they could have an open-casket funeral.

Offline Starfox

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Re: So. Thief.
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2014, 07:48:45 PM »
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- The save system is profoundly retarded. The autosaves overwrite my quicksaves, so I have to do a hard save before I go through, say, a window portal [map change], instead of relying upon a quicksave. If I decide that I don't want to be there and hit F9, it will not load my quicksave. No. It loads the autosave it created after loading the current map.

Actually I spend my time playing the game juggling between my keyboard+mouse and a gamepad... You know what? The game plays much better with the gamepad especially for all the lockpicking and finding the hidden "triggers" because it vibrates when you reach the "sweet spot". There's even a focus upgrade that is supposed to allow you to see the internal mechanism of a lock when in focus mode and to pick it faster (it transforms the mini-game in another allegedly simpler mini-game). Funny thing is that the replacement mini-game is unworkable with a mouse. If you have a gamepad however, it *is* faster. That's how the game is friendly toward consoles in general. The save system is part of that.

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- I spend more time trying to find out *how* to get to a location in a side mission than I do in actually playing the side mission itself.

Curiously that's one of the game areas I have the less problem with... go figure. I must have been a cartographer in another life  :lol: But I agree with the double map transitions just to come back to the map you just quit.

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- Also, I find it irritating that, after prying open a window into an apartment, I have to pry open the same window again when I leave.

I find it irritating too and furthermore I don't see the point of the "mash your button several time to work your mini-crowbar" or whatever... You do it once, OK. But what's the point to do that every time? Does it add any additional value to the gameplay? That would be understandable if it offered you the choice to abandon the opening like in "Oops, wrong window" but nope; once you're engaged in opening you cannot interrupt it (unlike lockpicking). So again what's the point? Yep... because I'm so happy to mash my button like a madman every time. They make it automatic between map transitions... Let's make it automatic all the time and keep my keyboard and/or gamepad happy.

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- The caliber of the writing...well...suffers, in comparison to the original. Instead of the amusing "taffer" in lieu of stronger epithets, we have the characters peppering the air with f-bombs aplenty.

At one point early in the game, so briefly that it's easy to miss, a guard complains about having been called a taffer once and not knowing what it means and dismissing it as drunken talk and that's the only time you hear the word in the whole game (which seems fitting for a game spending most of its time trying to erase each of the series previously established cannons like the connection between the Keepers and Garrett -- cf the ruins in Chapter 3) I have something to add to that (in fact I have a gazillion things to say about the story writing but let's not go there yet or in this thread) it's: where's Benny? I mean all the guards are so serious all the time there's not even one of them drunk. Now you have guards asleep on the job which is considerably less funny. I liked the traditional drunk guard (there was one in each previous game, even TDS).

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- That brothel was...interesting.  :ss-weird1

Yep... Once the Witcher 2 opened the way... Why not follow?   :purplelaugh:

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I took many screenshots.

You know I'm led to believe that there are a lot of pictures of *real* action floating around on the web :evil1:

If I may add one thing, I find it troubling in Thief to be rewarded for killing people... (part of the optional goals in several missions: pierce the head of X threats with an arrow). OK, that's optional but still. It encourages the assassin approach over the stealthy one. And the worst part it works. With the right focus and hardware upgrades you can pretty much go Rambo with any group of guards you find (this was one of my fears when they were talking about gameplay several months ago and unfortunately it's confirmed). So the reviewer who compared (still wrongly) Thief with Assassin's Creed was not entirely a dumbass because you can play the game the assassin way and still be a winner. It's like if Eidos took badly the reproachs done to DX:HR about being "punished" for killing and decided to remove that restriction in the one game in which killing should not be rewarding.... puzzling.


Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world. -- A. Einstein

Offline Silver Sorrow

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Re: So. Thief.
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2014, 05:17:09 PM »
So I finished it yesterday. I'm still trying to decide how I feel about the whole thing, but the phrase "epic story" is not a description I would apply to this game.  :P

Spoilers ahead, be wary.

- I was creeping through the final mission -- a non-functioning boat?? Jeebus Crostata, does that suck -- and I was homesick for Soulforge cathedral.

- Jenivere was a bird. A friggin' bird! At least I didn't have to free her from Lady Rumford's gilded cage::)

- There really didn't seem to be any sort of drawback to killing anyone, other than people freaking out when they saw the bodies. I guess you're supposed to apply your own morality to the game. (Although higher difficulty settings have more killing restrictions.) I just felt it was easier to snipe guards from a distance than constantly sneak around them.

- About AI freaking out when seeing a dead body: although their reaction -- screaming, running for the guards -- was appropriate for such moments, I did think that they were a little too nervous for such a gritty environment. Not that I thought they should walk by a body (featuring multiple arrows sticking out of it at crazy angles) with an air of nonchalance, but still.

For example, I KO'd two guards -- yes, I was new to the game and had yet to figure out that murder wasn't the worst thing I'd be doing that night -- and dragged them to a dark alcove. (Needless to say, my impromptu body closets were always overfilled.) Regardless, NPCs and guards could see them anyway, no matter how dark the shadows. I had expected the nonhostiles to eventually get used to the sight, but they never would. After they freaked out and ran screaming for the guards, they'd return to their original positions, then freak the hell out all over again when they saw the same bodies. It was maddening. So I'd take them out too.

- Guards were almost always patrolling in pairs.  Typical scenario: Get up on something tall, headshot the guy with the torch/lantern, aerial takedown of the one searching for me. That's if I wanted to save on arrows. If I had enough, I'd just headshot the both of them.

- And about the shadow play: without the Keepers' training, how exactly does Garrett develop his almost supernatural ability to become invisible in the shadows? He doesn't. He's just harder to see in the dark. Crouching doesn't make him more invisible, it just makes him more compact and harder to see behind crates.

- And the lack of funny guards? No kidding. I'd rarely stumble on a funny guard conversation. I vaguely recalled one guy (named "Lenny") who blathered about being an estate guard, but that was it. Most of the guard chatter I heard was bland phrases repeated ad nauseum.

- To prove that this isn't just complaining, I liked the back-and-forth between Basso and Garrett. Garrett's voice actor, for his part, did sound very close to Stephen Russell most of the time.

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You know I'm led to believe that there are a lot of pictures of *real* action floating around on the web :evil1:

Ah, but this is the dangerous, delicious moment of grace before some crusading mommy gets her granny-panties in a twist and they patch the game to be kid-friendly. :lol:

More later. I'm off to look at gamepads, I suppose. :computerfix:
An interview with Kim Kardashian? Who wants to see that? I'd rather see an interview with the mortician's assistant who had to piece her head back together so they could have an open-casket funeral.

Offline Starfox

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Re: So. Thief.
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2014, 06:07:12 PM »
So about the story, because fans have been trying to figure it out one theory I've read is that:

Spoiler
The Garrett in this game would NOT be the Garrett of the previous games... It just happens to be another Thief named Garrett who happens to have both a mechanical eye and a friend who happens to be named Basso who have a bird who happens to be named Jenivere. That's a freaking lot of coincidences... The story itself would be happening several hundred years after Garrett's time.

People who came with the above based their conclusion on several elements within the game (like the Keeper's compound that seems to have been crumbling for a long time and that the Garrett of this game completely fails to acknowledge -- meaning, he never trained with Keepers -- the documents that are found in the asylum mission -- which for me was a shameless reboot of Shalebridge Cradle without the spooky side -- that state that a thief was imprisoned there. Connected to the fact that a mechanical eye can be found in the same place (special loot) theorists came with the Garrett connection. Then there are the dates mentioned in the original series and the new game... but mostly there's a lot of assumption about those.

My feeling is that those people give too much credit to Eidos Writers. The first thing that makes it incredible that the story would happen several hundred years after Garrett is: what? no technological progression? Several hundred years later and they were not even able to invent a car? Let alone a coffee machine? They still use mostly the same arrows? The whole game universe feels like 10 years later, certainly not 500 or 800.

Furthermore why Eidos would choose to retain Garrett and Basso if the story was supposed to happen that much time later? Easier and safer to change the names which would have had for effect a) to stop fans from being confused and b) to not have that much people unhappy about Stephen Russell no being used. Did they keep JC Denton as the name of the hero of DX:HR? No, because the hero was clearly not JC denton.

Anyway, there's no official explanation about why they chose this story, how they designed it or the ties it has (if any) with the previous games. In my mind there isn't any, at least nothing consistent.


And yes, I wouldn't apply "epic" to this game story... It's just okay but so are the stories of a lot of basic TV series... And I SO miss undeads!

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Garrett's voice actor, for his part, did sound very close to Stephen Russell most of the time.

The voice did sound close but I still found that the intonation wasn't there. In several occasions I tried to imagine how Stephen would have delivered some of the one liners and there was a difference each time... maybe that's just me but: where's the sarcasm, the irony? Where's the cynical approach of life? Gone with the guards humor I suppose.

About sound, Eidos work is not of Epic proportion either. The guards lines are too few and frequently repeated and sometimes one can even hear two different guards delivering the same line at the same time. To make matters worse the music is far too loud in some occasions (Typically during all those tense moments when you run for your life).

And finally from a pure gameplay point of view, most missions are far too linear. Typically they did an effort to offer you a choice between two approach routes, very occasionally one more and when you are in "Run for your life" mode it's just the one obvious route to escape. Most extreme example: The Keep. They don't even offer you a choice. There just one route to enter, one way to navigate inside... it's possibly the most linear mission in the whole game. Degree of freedom: near zero.

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Ah, but this is the dangerous, delicious moment of grace before some crusading mommy gets her granny-panties in a twist and they patch the game to be kid-friendly. :lol:

I think we're safe from that... They never patched the Witcher 2 did they? At least not to remove the naughty scenes :lol:. In most countries. I heard they were removed for Australia before shipping, no idea why.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 10:34:15 AM by Starfox »


Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world. -- A. Einstein

Offline Doc_Brown

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Re: So. Thief.
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2014, 11:28:59 AM »
Zero Punctuation review.  Because the lols.
Roads?  Where we're going we don't need roads.